Cobra Kai Havertz: No Mercy

[db10_therza]

Because people are jumping to false conclusions, thinking that his poor first half season showing was solely position related and that he has improved only because he is now playing up front, when it's obvious that he was completely devoid of any confidence and courage in the first half which wasn't position related and has since grown massively as the season has progressed.

Regardless, of whether he plays in midfield or up front, he still executes actions in the same part of the pitch and instead of the timid, and regressive player we saw, he's morphed into a guy who his hitting 40 yard cross field passes to setup Saka for goals.

He is better up front but had we kept him in midfield all season, his performances would still be greatly improved today.

Nah you guys don’t get it.

There is a huge difference between what is required up front and in midfield, both in the technical and mental aspects of the game. Not only that you need to consider the attributes of the midfield collective.

What Kai lacks from the technical side of the game for midfield:

1. The ability to execute simple things to a degree of perfection repeatedly, over and over and over again. Kai (and Jesus, and pretty much most forwards) can pull off the sublime one moment and then fluff something simple the next. Forwards tend to be high risk high reward by design.

2. Pace of Passing. Havertz often doesn’t put enough pace on the ball when passing the ball along the ground and it becomes a target for interception or places the recipient under undue pressure. Again, this risk is mitigated when it’s happening further upfield with 3 midfielders to protect our shape behind him. But if he is in midfield then it’s a risk.

What Kai lacks from the mental side to be a midfielder:

1. Movement. This is probably what frustrates me most about these conversations because if you guys actually watched and understood Havertz like the fans you claim to be you should just get it. Havertz is an incredible space merchant. He knows exactly when and where to run to disrupt the opposition back line. He drops deep to drag a center back with him to open a space for a winger, he will occupy the spaces between them to throw off who’s marking who and he will also just straight up get physical with them. Sounds simple but he times all of this to perfection. All of these things make him a great forward. None of these things are good in midfield. In midfield you need to show for the ball. Part of the reason we were so bad with central progression when Kai was at 8 is because he would play his natural game and try to find a space that would disrupt the opposition, as opposed to find a space that would open up passing lanes for us. There is a difference between these two.


What Arsenal lacks from the midfield collective when Kai plays in midfield:

1. Central Progression: He is not someone who can play cute passes through the lines with any amount of regularity. And neither is Rice. When they both play in midfield this places a huge burden on Ødegaard and if the opposition mark him out of the game then that’s it. We got nothing apart from Saka and inshallah. Now yes, you can ask “well why are we playing Rice then?”. Because Rice gives us manifestly world class qualities in other aspects. Kai in midfield doesn’t. It’s that simple. Would it work better if we had Partey and Kai instead of Rice - yes, but not as good as Rice + say Paqueta would. Or Rice at 8. So why do it?


Conclusion:

We have witnessed one of the greatest Remontada’s of recent times with Kai in his false 9 role. Please, I beg you guys, don’t fk this up moving him back to 8 where we shackle his strengths, amplify his weaknesses and drag down the overall attributes of the team as a whole.

 

[samspade]

Please, I beg you guys, don’t fk this up moving him back to 8 where we shackle his strengths, amplify his weaknesses and drag down the overall attributes of the team as a whole.

great news! I’ve just got off the phone with Mikel and he’s agreed to move him back to 8!

 

[db10_therza]

great news! I’ve just got off Mikel and he’s agreed to move him back to 8!

FTFY

 

[samspade]

FTFY

If I was lucky enough to be on Mikel, rest assured mate, I’m never getting off

 

[outlawz]

Nah you guys don’t get it.

There is a huge difference between what is required up front and in midfield, both in the technical and mental aspects of the game. Not only that you need to consider the attributes of the midfield collective.

What Kai lacks from the technical side of the game for midfield:

1. The ability to execute simple things to a degree of perfection repeatedly, over and over and over again. Kai (and Jesus, and pretty much most forwards) can pull off the sublime one moment and then fluff something simple the next. Forwards tend to be high risk high reward by design.

2. Pace of Passing. Havertz often doesn’t put enough pace on the ball when passing the ball along the ground and it becomes a target for interception or places the recipient under undue pressure. Again, this risk is mitigated when it’s happening further upfield with 3 midfielders to protect our shape behind him. But if he is in midfield then it’s a risk.

What Kai lacks from the mental side to be a midfielder:

1. Movement. This is probably what frustrates me most about these conversations because if you guys actually watched and understood Havertz like the fans you claim to be you should just get it. Havertz is an incredible space merchant. He knows exactly when and where to run to disrupt the opposition back line. He drops deep to drag a center back with him to open a space for a winger, he will occupy the spaces between them to throw off who’s marking who and he will also just straight up get physical with them. Sounds simple but he times all of this to perfection. All of these things make him a great forward. None of these things are good in midfield. In midfield you need to show for the ball. Part of the reason we were so bad with central progression when Kai was at 8 is because he would play his natural game and try to find a space that would disrupt the opposition, as opposed to find a space that would open up passing lanes for us. There is a difference between these two.


What Arsenal lacks from the midfield collective when Kai plays in midfield:

1. Central Progression: He is not someone who can play cute passes through the lines with any amount of regularity. And neither is Rice. When they both play in midfield this places a huge burden on Ødegaard and if the opposition mark him out of the game then that’s it. We got nothing apart from Saka and inshallah. Now yes, you can ask “well why are we playing Rice then?”. Because Rice gives us manifestly world class qualities in other aspects. Kai in midfield doesn’t. It’s that simple. Would it work better if we had Partey and Kai instead of Rice - yes, but not as good as Rice + say Paqueta would. Or Rice at 8. So why do it?


Conclusion:

We have witnessed one of the greatest Remontada’s of recent times with Kai in his false 9 role. Please, I beg you guys, don’t fk this up moving him back to 8 where we shackle his strengths, amplify his weaknesses and drag down the overall attributes of the team as a whole.

I don't disagree with your assessment of his capabilities, however it's based off a period when he was low on confidence. Hence, all the weaknesses you pointed out which were exacerbated as a result. We have a very small sample size of him playing in midfield when he's high in confidence.

Since the turn of the year, he played in midfield against West Ham and Burnley for example when we won 6-0 and 5-0 respectively and he was exceptional in midfield whilst interchanging with Trossard up front.

I'm not saying that he's better in midfield, I'm saying that writing him off from a midfield role is crazy given that he was written off altogether as a player just 3 months prior and he's proven the entire fanbase wrong. We are still figuring out how high his ceiling is, and if we sign a striker like Isak for example, I would want to see Havertz play off him from midfield, rather than consigning him to the subs bench.

 

[drippin]

We have witnessed one of the greatest Remontada’s of recent times with Kai in his false 9 role. Please, I beg you guys, don’t fk this up moving him back to 8 where we shackle his strengths, amplify his weaknesses and drag down the overall attributes of the team as a whole.

No one is suggesting moving him to midfield per se. People are saying that he can be utilized as midfield rotation rather than have him only as a CF, and otherwise on the bench.

He has huge stamina and durability. He was bought for his versatility. Having such a player helps with squad building towards City levels. They too have mostly versatile top players so everyone can be kept happy with minutes, and you need less players in the squad overall which helps with FFP.

Outlawz above said what I would have also said, and said in the first months and when Arsenal bought him. He needed time to adjust to the team, tactics and a role he has never played. And get confidence. Would be silly to judge his level in midfield based on that, when we have seen how wrong most people were about him overall.

 

[db10_therza]

if we sign a striker like Isak for example, I would want to see Havertz play off him from midfield, rather than consigning him to the subs bench.

Isn’t this putting an individual ahead of the team? In any case the correct conclusion here (imo) is that we should prioritise a starting midfielder ahead of a starting striker because we have Havertz and he’s doing fine.

 

[avenellroad]

Isn’t this putting an individual ahead of the team? In any case the correct conclusion here (imo) is that we should prioritise a starting midfielder ahead of a starting striker because we have Havertz and he’s doing fine.

We need quality in midfield and a quality left winger along with someone to rotate with Saka. Striker really isn’t a problem position for us as I thought a few months back.

We definitely need more goals from our wide players though (Saka and Trossard excepting). That gives us a real varied threat

 

[drippin]

I'll link this post about Havertz I put in Guimareas transfer thread here, because otherwise it might get drowned only in the wrong area.

Bruno Guimarães

Bruno should not have to be sold to comply with artificial rules that do not account for owner's wealth. It's the Saudi sovereign wealth fund - the richest on the planet - not some dodgy millionaire. Badge kissing ***** My question is, IF Newcastle were inclined to sell Bruno to City, what...

arsenal-mania.com

 

[drippin]

We need quality in midfield and a quality left winger along with someone to rotate with Saka.

Arsenal has Jesus, who played like half of his games as RW for City, at a great level. He could not play there much this season with his injury, but Arteta won't sell him for peanuts.

 

[drippin]

Isn’t this putting an individual ahead of the team? In any case the correct conclusion here (imo) is that we should prioritise a starting midfielder ahead of a starting striker because we have Havertz and he’s doing fine.

I have always said that a DMF/CMF is the most important signing next summer. It was obvious since last summer, when Arsenal didn't buy one, and still has aging & injury-prone Partey and Jorginho.

Having a versatile level-headed good guy Havertz in your team can never be putting an individual ahead of the team. It's exactly what enables having a top-notch team like City.

Buying another striker after the top midfielder is only telling that Arsenal is going for titles now. Letting go of Nketiah, and having Jesus as a great rotational player. Pep wanted to extend him to have him in a similar role. Chelsea wanted to extend Havertz.

 

[RandomHero84]

Replace him with Jesus this season, even fully fit, and I don't think we are in the title race.

That's how much I think he's turned it around.

 

[boonthegoon]

Great game awareness for the assist. Intelligent player.

 

[celestis]

Mate his game intelligence is really good . Spots Casemiro lagging behind and takes advantage of it .

 

[Riou]

Winning us games at Old Trafford and whatever Sp**s' ground is called, yet people don't appreciate him.

ELITE striker!

 

[OnlyOne]

Proves me wrong time and time again and that’s all you can ask.

 

[sdotzdot]

Mate his game intelligence is really good . Spots Casemiro lagging behind and takes advantage of it .

Yep, he even mentioned it in the interview. He didn’t have a great game overall, but he was there for the pivotal moment which led to the 3 points and at this point of the season at OT, that is a great performance in itself. Sometimes moments > performance and today is very much one of those days.

He also said he’ll be the biggest Sp**s fan on Tuesday, which I absolutely loved you can tell he genuinely loves it here.

 

[Buhry]

Great vision for that assist, looked up and executed it perfectly. Martinelli please watch and learn

 

[SA Gunner]

Great game awareness for the assist. Intelligent player.

Great awareness for the goal, but didnt win his aerial duels as much today, but that intelligence in spotting Casemiro asleep gets him by today.

He's given us the battering ram, Giroud profile this team needs. He now needs to be surrounded by more killers on the ball and we'll see him go up another level in his overall game.

 

[Yousif Arsenal]

I really expected he do better today coming against this weak utd defense but good assist