Winning Mentality

[Beksl]

Winning mentality, leadership ability they are all just small parts of a bigger picture. At the end it all comes down to a level of quality a certain player presents.

You will never win anything with just a right mentality and leadership.

 

[mo50]

Well, for the last 3 games the gulf in quality between us and the opposition was massive, yet we couldn't win. Something's wrong with the team. Whenever we have a real chance of winning they all play differently. I don't like using the word but bottlers best describes them. Its what happens when you dismantle a winning team so quickly and replace them with youth. Wenger badly managed the transition (along with many other things) and we're still suffering.

 

[dpt49]

Vieira, Adams, Keown, Henry, Parlour, Bergkamp, Lehman, Pires, all winners that played like they wanted to win.

Compare these players to what we have now, none of them have won anything in this country, and it shows.

Wenger needs 2-3 winners, like Adams or Viera, who do anything to win, and players like Henry, Bergkamp and Pires who make things happen.

In the last few games I haven't seen anything to convince me that we have enough quality.
We need to shake the team up. There are too many players who look comfortable and not willing to put in what it takes.

Those players I mentioned earlier would be embarrassed at our recent performances

 

[GOONER1991]

Vieira, Adams, Keown, Henry, Parlour, Bergkamp, Lehman, Pires, all winners that played like they wanted to win.

Compare these players to what we have now, none of them have won anything in this country, and it shows.

Wenger needs 2-3 winners, like Adams or Viera, who do anything to win, and players like Henry, Bergkamp and Pires who make things happen.

In the last few games I haven't seen anything to convince me that we have enough quality.
We need to shake the team up. There are too many players who look comfortable and not willing to put in what it takes.

Those players I mentioned earlier would be embarrassed at our recent performances

Sometimes keeping a declining player's influence in the dressing room, and on the pitch, is more valuable than getting money for them before they aren't worth anything. Wenger valued getting some money back for his stars before they were worthless, more than keeping them around to help bring through the youth, hence why he dismantled the invincibles so quickly.

 

[dpt49]

Vieira, Adams, Keown, Henry, Parlour, Bergkamp, Lehman, Pires, all winners that played like they wanted to win.

Compare these players to what we have now, none of them have won anything in this country, and it shows.

Wenger needs 2-3 winners, like Adams or Viera, who do anything to win, and players like Henry, Bergkamp and Pires who make things happen.

In the last few games I haven't seen anything to convince me that we have enough quality.
We need to shake the team up. There are too many players who look comfortable and not willing to put in what it takes.

Those players I mentioned earlier would be embarrassed at our recent performances

Sometimes keeping a declining player's influence in the dressing room, and on the pitch, is more valuable than getting money for them before they aren't worth anything. Wenger valued getting some money back for his stars before they were worthless, more than keeping them around to help bring through the youth, hence why he dismantled the invincibles so quickly.

I agree,

All I meant was these are the types of players we lack and desperately need.

Something has got to change, there are too many players that don't seem to have the urgency that previous successful teams had, as I said we need 2-3 players with a record of winning to shake things up

 

[GOONER1991]

Vieira, Adams, Keown, Henry, Parlour, Bergkamp, Lehman, Pires, all winners that played like they wanted to win.

Compare these players to what we have now, none of them have won anything in this country, and it shows.

Wenger needs 2-3 winners, like Adams or Viera, who do anything to win, and players like Henry, Bergkamp and Pires who make things happen.

In the last few games I haven't seen anything to convince me that we have enough quality.
We need to shake the team up. There are too many players who look comfortable and not willing to put in what it takes.

Those players I mentioned earlier would be embarrassed at our recent performances

Sometimes keeping a declining player's influence in the dressing room, and on the pitch, is more valuable than getting money for them before they aren't worth anything. Wenger valued getting some money back for his stars before they were worthless, more than keeping them around to help bring through the youth, hence why he dismantled the invincibles so quickly.

I agree,

All I meant was these are the types of players we lack and desperately need.

Something has got to change, there are too many players that don't seem to have the urgency that previous successful teams had, as I said we need 2-3 players with a record of winning to shake things up

Yeah, I know... I was just further backing up your point.

 

[thegame24]

Hang on you want winners yet you wanted gallas out who was the number 1 winner in our squad.

Wanted hleb out who always created

wanted ade out who always scored in big games.

You wanted them replaced and now look at them. Only rvp fabs and wilshere are winners and only arshavin can make something happen from midfield if hes bothered.

 

[mo50]

Those guys were the first wave of bottlers. Good riddance.

Gallas as the #1 winner must be some sort of joke. He's the guy who started crying when the going got tough. Some sort of winner he was.

 

[thegame24]

It was the last kick of the game and we just got cheated. He showed this thing called emotion.

lol bottlers.

 

[Shue]

Go post in your thread

 

[GOONER1991]

Hang on you want winners yet you wanted gallas out who was the number 1 winner in our squad.

Wanted hleb out who always created

wanted ade out who always scored in big games.

You wanted them replaced and now look at them. Only rvp fabs and wilshere are winners and only arshavin can make something happen from midfield if hes bothered.

Gallas was a good player and wasn't afraid to speak his mind and criticise his team-mates. The issue was that the rest of the team, rather than respond to his criticism constructively, isolated him and thus he became a tumour in the dressing room. The mentality of the rest of the team was poor. Players like Nasri who are arrogant, and thus respond negatively to criticism causing conflict, rather than positively in trying to prove themselves or sort the issue out.

Hleb was a good player, and I was saddened when he decided to leave. He was creative, and would have been useful in games like yesterday. He really needed to add goals to his game though, but that could have come with more directness. He got big headed and ruined his own career.

Adebayor was lazy, greedy and big headed. He was a likeable guy when happy, but his shenanigans and whoring himself out after one good season was disgusting. His laziness and arrogance made him a tumour in the team, and I'm happy he's gone.

 

[mo50]

Gallas had the biggest loser mentality I've seen. Throwing a hissy fit after things got tough, in-house fighting, not talking to teammates, publicly criticizing the players he captains, etc. To top it off, he always missed at least 1/3 of the season. Dribble Mcnoscore eh? We ripped Barca off there.

Those were the types Wenger got spot on when he shipped them off. The Flamini's, Gilberto's, Vieira's, etc were the ones that should have stayed longer.

Anyway, that's in the past and nothing can be done. And since Wenger is here for the next 3 seasons, we must look at remedying this mental hurdle, the final push we seem to not be able to get over.

 

[Y va marquer]

Do we have a winning mentality?

If by this we mean do our players collectively have "the winner is the last man standing attitude" then I would have to say that it appears that we don't.

That does not mean that I think our team are a bunch of timid losers. I don't.

There have been games this season, Everton at home being a prime example, where they looked like they would prefer to die rather than lose.
These games almost always involve our first choice XI.

Take certain players out of the equation (Szczesny, Djourou, Song, Robin, Theo and Cesc) and you suddenly have a team with a completely different attitude.

I don't know why this is the case. My suspicion is that Arsène has in a way almost created two very distinct teams from his squad of players.
It's maybe unusual in a Top 4 club that we know without much debate who our first choice XI are?
Meaning that the players who are not part of this may feel second class and perhaps feel like they cannot challenge for a place in the first choice set-up?
Consequently this affects their attitude and their confidence?
When they are then called upon to play in high pressure games they have neither the sense of belonging nor the belief
to play with the fight and courage required when events go against us in big games.

None of this explains Saturday's lacklustre performance of course.
That I would attribute to international break hangover, the return of players lacking match sharpness and a general lack of ideas as to how to break down the Blackburn defence.
Given that it involved our "super six" I would be willing to believe that the malaise will have lifted by the time we play Blackpool.

If not then I'm really at a loss to make sense of what's going on.

 

[Mastadon]

We have become a global corporation - we're not focused on results (for our supporters), & our primary aim is to play attractive & entertaining football for the general fans coming throught the gates.

Whenever I read this I always think it is total nonsense. Wenger does not consider entertainment when he puts up the team sheet, conducts the training sessions, gives half time team talks, selects kids at 15 to join Arsenal or developed players at 26. Wenger was considering entertainment when he sold one of the best dribblers in the league to one of our economic and footballing rivals? Wenger is considering entertainment when he puts out Diaby and Denilson in starting line ups? Perhaps its entertainment for opposing fans when he persists with poor goalkeepers. Maybe he really wishes he ran a comedy store?

If what you and others we saying was true then why is it we have no players that are style over substance? Our players don't do 10 step overs before passing. Our players pass in a boring methodical way around the opponents box then lose the ball.

YOu know what gets fans through the gates more than anything? Winning trophies so what you are saying is nonsense.

I agree with DanDare I think its too simplistic to dismiss us as a club which primarily aims to provide entertainment. The shareholders of this club are businessmen, they know that the value of their investment in the club in the long run depends on results. Arsenal FC as a global brand needs trophies to continue growing and to attract new fans and the shareholders as businessmen will know that.

A few months ago some people on this forum were describing us as having the best squad in the league. Clearly this is a view which was shared/created by Wenger. Saying that our primary aim is to provide entertainment is naive at best. We are where we are because Wenger believes that this squad is good enough to win trophies. There is no lack of ambition or drive from management or the board. Once again, Wenger simply believes that the team is good enough and there is no need to change or add anything else to it in order to win trophies.

Wenger is one of the worst losers I have ever seen and he wants to win trophies more than anyone on this forum, have no doubt about that. Unfortunately he put his faith in this team to do so and the team has failed him, just like he has failed them.

 

[flobaba]

None of this explains Saturday's lacklustre performance of course.
That I would attribute to international break hangover, the return of players lacking match sharpness and a general lack of ideas as to how to break down the Blackburn defence.

I'm sorry y va, but we also have an excuse culture, which is basically handed down from the coach to the players and then some fans swallow it up, and spew it out- like you just have.

We were not the only team to go on the international break you know. The players really didn't look fatigued or tired out there on Saturday. In fact I thought the break came at a very good time as we'd already started looking really shaky, and predictable in the two previous games.

When other team's key players return from injury, it's usually a plus to the side rather than detrimental. Why do our players always need/ expect bedding in time? If they are not ready, then they are not ready and should not be started. Walcott and Song were the two we were missing, and I truly don't believe they would have been much better even if they'd not been out for a couple of weeks. Coming in they should have been fresher, fitter and raring to go. Yes?

When things go wrong, rather than look outwards, and put the blame on external factors, it has always been my philosphy to look inwards at myself, and what I can do to make things better. We've seen this type of lacklustre performance more than once this season for it to be a mere blip, or attributed to the break.

 

[Anzac]

We have become a global corporation - we're not focused on results (for our supporters), & our primary aim is to play attractive & entertaining football for the general fans coming throught the gates.

Whenever I read this I always think it is total nonsense. Wenger does not consider entertainment when he puts up the team sheet, conducts the training sessions, gives half time team talks, selects kids at 15 to join Arsenal or developed players at 26. Wenger was considering entertainment when he sold one of the best dribblers in the league to one of our economic and footballing rivals? Wenger is considering entertainment when he puts out Diaby and Denilson in starting line ups? Perhaps its entertainment for opposing fans when he persists with poor goalkeepers. Maybe he really wishes he ran a comedy store?

If what you and others we saying was true then why is it we have no players that are style over substance? Our players don't do 10 step overs before passing. Our players pass in a boring methodical way around the opponents box then lose the ball.

YOu know what gets fans through the gates more than anything? Winning trophies so what you are saying is nonsense.

You've applied my analogy too literally.

I don't mean that AW sits down & thinks about 'entertainment' value when selecting the team etc, moreso that it's a part of why we play the style that we do. Intricate short passing around the area, player movement & interchange whilst keeping possession is all very aesthetically pleasing on the eye.

We don't have show ponies in the squad because AW's tactical approach is directed towards the team as a collective & he relies upon the system rather than the individual/s involved. This is also relevant regarding the other thread topics regarding leadership & individuals.

As for you last point = trophies are for the club supporters, entertainment is for the plastics/fans/corporate sponsors etc. It's NOT trophies that bring the punters through the gates on match day (particularly the corporate which is worht more than Highbury generated), it's the idea that they will be entertained regardless of the result.

 

[Y va marquer]

I'm sorry y va, but we also have an excuse culture, which is basically handed down from the coach to the players and then some fans swallow it up, and spew it out- like you just have.

We were not the only team to go on the international break you know. The players really didn't look fatigued or tired out there on Saturday. In fact I thought the break came at a very good time as we'd already started looking really shaky, and predictable in the two previous games.

When other team's key players return from injury, it's usually a plus to the side rather than detrimental. Why do our players always need/ expect bedding in time? If they are not ready, then they are not ready and should not be started. Walcott and Song were the two we were missing, and I truly don't believe they would have been much better even if they'd not been out for a couple of weeks. Coming in they should have been fresher, fitter and raring to go. Yes?

When things go wrong, rather than look outwards, and put the blame on external factors, it has always been my philosphy to look inwards at myself, and what I can do to make things better. We've seen this type of lacklustre performance more than once this season for it to be a mere blip, or attributed to the break.

I agree that we’ve seen this kind of lacklustre performance before flobaba.
If you take my final point in conjunction with the other points made in my post you would see that I mentioned that these type of performances almost always involve a starting XI that is made up of our “second string” (think Wigan away, Orient, Leeds etc).

I don’t remember very many performances involving the so called “super six” that have been this lacklustre apart from perhaps the United away game.

You mention that I swallow the excuse culture and spew it out – I don’t : )
I’m not trying to justify the performance or apologise for the player’s contribution to the flat, lifeless, uninspiring nil all draw against the team with the worst away defence in the league.
I tried to see a reason, as in a cause for Saturday’s performance, that didn’t involve classifying players like Robin, Nasri, Arsahvin, Theo Wilshere, Song ,Cesc, Clichy and Sagna as mentally fragile bottlers (given that is the subject of this thread).

As for Theo and Song not being raring to go – yes they were, but as far as I’m aware Theo seemed to have aggravated his ankle injury and Song looked to have been hobbling towards the end of the game.

As for other teams not suffering because of the internationals – Chlesea drew and Liverpool lost – both had players returning from International games.
Of United’s starting line-up only Evra and Rooney (maybe Smalling) were returning from International duty.

Perhaps Wenger should have rotated? Why didn’t he?
For the reasons I stated in my post – our second choice players are mentally weak and routinely produce uninspired performances.

The whole point of my post was to forward the notion that instead of a squad where players are genuinely competing for position we have a two tier system where we have a clear distinction between our A team and B team in terms of quality and attitude.

To my eyes Saturday was not a typical performance from a team that was made up primarily of our A players. If you can say that our first choice team that faced Barca at home, that beat Chelsea at home that came from behind to beat Everton at home is a team that’s mentally fragile please tell me why?

 

[AnthonyG]

I always wanted to kick Yoda too.

 

[flobaba]

I tried to see a reason, as in a cause for Saturday’s performance, that didn’t involve classifying players like Robin, Nasri, Arsahvin, Theo Wilshere, Song ,Cesc, Clichy and Sagna as mentally fragile bottlers (given that is the subject of this thread).

First of all, I don't think it's an individual problem- it's a team thing. Similar to how Tottenham was unable to defeat us back in the day when we still had a proper team (apart from the fact that they were ****), regardless of how poor our play was. Slightest pressure on, and we tend to churn out these type of performances, whether we've got our so called Super Six available or not.

As for Theo and Song not being raring to go – yes they were, but as far as I’m aware Theo seemed to have aggravated his ankle injury and Song looked to have been hobbling towards the end of the game.

Again, as I said, if they weren't fully fit, they shouldn't have had to play, but again, our poor display was hardly attributable to them, or indeed any individual player, but just a general lack of ideas and diversity from the team as a whole.

As for other teams not suffering because of the internationals – Chlesea drew and Liverpool lost – both had players returning from International games.

Chelsea's and Liverpool's form has been shaky all season. I don't watch their games, but really don't think they could have put up as flat, or toothless a performance as we did.

Of United’s starting line-up only Evra and Rooney (maybe Smalling) were returning from International duty.

This sort of neutrallizes your point as they still went down 2-0 in the first half. And Rooney, one of the players out on Int'l duty was eventually their best player and bagged himself a trick.

The whole point of my post was to forward the notion that instead of a squad where players are genuinely competing for position we have a two tier system where we have a clear distinction between our A team and B team in terms of quality and attitude.

I agree, about the quality, but not about the attitude. A clear example of a poor attitude was what Arshavin was doing earlier in the season, when it was plain to all that he was playing carelessly and lazily. His quality can't be disputed. I also believe that the likes of Rosicky, Bendtner, Denilson, and even Almunia, don't have poor attitudes- they're just **** and incompetent, and can't help it.

To my eyes Saturday was not a typical performance from a team that was made up primarily of our A players. If you can say that our first choice team that faced Barca at home, that beat Chelsea at home that came from behind to beat Everton at home is a team that’s mentally fragile please tell me why?

Well, I would say it does have a problem with attitude/ mentality as well, simply because of the same games you listed. They have games such as the ones vs Chelsea and Barca when they all give 100%, and are all fully focussed and up for it, and you can then get a glimpse of what the team is truly capable of. But then again they see some games e.g vs Blackburn as a given/easy(er) win (like some posters on the forum), complacency sets in, and they expect the opposition to bend over and allow the mighty Arsenal stick it to them just cause they're in the second division or champion's league debutants, or have the worst defensive record in the league or whatever. They do not realize that they have to fight for every yard on the field from the moment the whistle is blown till the very end. It's what Keown was mad at after our first leg against Orient-I know that was the '2nd string' team but Our first team also has that attitude quite a number of times, and is only bailed out by individual quality and intelligence.

 

[flobaba]

I always wanted to kick Yoda too.

Heheh. Missed you too Tony Tone Tone.