Kai Havertz: No More Mr Nice Kai

[2Smokeyy]

Think we can fit in a maverick in the team now , there is so much pressing power and defensive power , we can afford an Overmars or a Pires .

I agree we can but I would be very, very surprised if it happens. Take a Rafael Leao for example guys like @Trilly @jones etc have been banging on about him for the longest but in the back of their minds, they know it will never happen. If we’re being completely honest with ourselves this team is pretty bland and lacks magic but we’ve known this for a while.

It’s more likely we’ll get a Bowen, Neto or someone like that than compromising our system and having a blend.

 

[PrinzPoldi]

I agree we can but I would be very, very surprised if it happens. Take a Rafael Leao for example guys like @Trilly @jones etc have been banging on about him for the longest but in the back of their minds, they know it will never happen. If we’re being completely honest with ourselves this team is pretty bland and lacks magic but we’ve known this for a while.

It’s more likely we’ll get a Bowen, Neto or someone like that than compromising our system and having a blend.

maybe adding a player or two with trickery ability would help?
We are an organized team, maybe just lacking some creativity other than Ode.
Even Ode nowadays not exactly creative and adventurous anymore.

Still, I think we are fine, just need a couple of more good players, more robust, healthy players, then we are good for a 20-men squad.

 

[2Smokeyy]

maybe adding a player or two with trickery ability would help?
We are an organized team, maybe just lacking some creativity other than Ode.
Even Ode nowadays not exactly creative and adventurous anymore.

Still, I think we are fine, just need a couple of more good players, more robust, healthy players, then we are good for a 20-men squad.

It could work in the PL but I just don’t think it’s realistic in the CL latter stages without game changers. If you look at the Quarter Finals this year and the players who stepped up to try and drag their teams through, there’s a common theme.

KDB, Rodrygo, Mbappe, Dembele etc all woke up when it really mattered. This isn’t even a knee jerk reaction or realisation after last nights game as I’ve been saying for a while now that compared to other sides around Europe that it’s a bit hard to compete when you’re up against teams who have players that can change a tie or game in an instant even if they’re not playing well. The last time we had that sort of quality was with Alexis/Özil but the rest of their team was pretty dire back then.

We need Arteta’s system to work exactly as planned for us to do well otherwise it’ll be a struggle whereas others don’t.

 

[PrinzPoldi]

It could work in the PL but I just don’t think it’s realistic in the CL latter stages without game changers. If you look at the Quarter Finals this year and the players who stepped up to try and drag their teams through, there’s a common theme.

KDB, Rodrygo, Mbappe, Dembele etc all woke up when it really mattered. This isn’t even a knee jerk reaction or realisation after last nights game as I’ve been saying for a while now that compared to other sides around Europe that it’s a bit hard to compete when you’re up against teams who have players that can change a tie or game in an instant even if they’re not playing well. The last time we had that sort of quality was with Alexis/Özil but the rest of their team was pretty dire back then.

We need Arteta’s system to work exactly as planned for us to do well otherwise it’ll be a struggle whereas others don’t.

If you talk about game changers, it will cost a lot, more than what we paid for Rice I believe.

This is the first CL in 7 years of absence.
To get into QF is an acceptable result. Cannot say "good" but it is acceptable.
What we lack of most, is the CL experience as a team.

This Bayern team is one of the least lethal Bayern we have ever faced BUT they are still Bayern.
They have great individuals and they have the CL experience. They basically get the CL spot automatically every year.
Like you said, when it matter most, those individuals have a higher chance to step up.

The tough job for Edu/Arteta is, how we are going to spend our budget this summer.
To get a differnece maker? Or spread out for multiple positions.
If we spend another 100m+ on a game changer, pretty much saying we will stick with the likes of Eddie/Nelson/ESR/Vieira. Not all, but we cannot clean house if not able to find suitors.
Consider we already have spots open and to reinforce.

 

[ArsenesCoatMaker]

The club and our fans have their priorities wrong with these signings. Every window you have people on here bantering others for wanting ballers and placing too much focus on things like pressing, height, duels etc when first and foremost we should be looking at whether they can play football and their technical level, other things should be an added bonus.

Too many system players for my liking and Kai is another example of that. If we want our fortunes to change in a game like last night then that system needs to be adapted to fit in one or two ballers who will be allowed to express themselves and create a moment of magic from nothing - can’t see it happening anytime soon or ever under this regime.

Maddison is a better technical player than Havertz, but he can't cover as much space, press and win challenges aswell, or find space to score a goal aswell. Plus he can't stay fit. There is pluses and minuses to most players.

Lest we forget later generation Wenger had the best technical players but they didn't have the physical fortitude to come through for us

 

[lomekian]

Maddison is a better technical player than Havertz, but he can't cover as much space, press and win challenges aswell, or find space to score a goal aswell. Plus he can't stay fit. There is pluses and minuses to most players.

Lest we forget later generation Wenger had the best technical players but they didn't have the physical fortitude to come through for us

Also Maddison is clearly a massive bell-end

 

[RunTheTrap]

The club and our fans have their priorities wrong with these signings. Every window you have people on here bantering others for wanting ballers and placing too much focus on things like pressing, height, duels etc when first and foremost we should be looking at whether they can play football and their technical level, other things should be an added bonus.

Too many system players for my liking and Kai is another example of that. If we want our fortunes to change in a game like last night then that system needs to be adapted to fit in one or two ballers who will be allowed to express themselves and create a moment of magic from nothing - can’t see it happening anytime soon or ever under this regime.

I can't lie, something has changed within this fan base. I couldn't believe my eyes when fans praised Kai's performance against Newcastle away because he showed some fight. In a game where Kai was our primary creator, he played like a ruffian. He was running about kicking people and almost got himself sent off. We grew up with Bergkamp, Cesc and Özil, and got the lanky Jay Spearing at no. 10. Arsenal fans are known for being arrogant when it comes to technical players. But when it came to Kai, our standards dropped.

 

[db10_therza]

The tough job for Edu/Arteta is, how we are going to spend our budget this summer.
To get a differnece maker? Or spread out for multiple positions.
If we spend another 100m+ on a game changer, pretty much saying we will stick with the likes of Eddie/Nelson/ESR/Vieira. Not all, but we cannot clean house if not able to find suitors.
Consider we already have spots open and to reinforce.

We have it prioritise well. For me its clear, we need to get a proper midfielder in above everything. When our engine room isn’t pumping everything else falls apart, when it is on fire it masks over deficiencies elsewhere.

A defender is a nice to have, not a must have. Likewise with a striker. I would however argue that a pacy winger should be up there as well.

Unfortunately though I think the regime thinks differently and I don’t see any midfield links appearing which makes me think we’ll see another season of hot and cold football. I’m sure we will sign a midfielder but if we were targeting a wc MF who would cost > £100m which we should be, then we would have heard about it by now. We’ll end up getting someone like Zubimendi and left wondering “what if”…

 

[PrinzPoldi]

We have it prioritise well. For me its clear, we need to get a proper midfielder in above everything. When our engine room isn’t pumping everything else falls apart, when it is on fire it masks over deficiencies elsewhere.

A defender is a nice to have, not a must have. Likewise with a striker. I would however argue that a pacy winger should be up there as well.

Unfortunately though I think the regime thinks differently and I don’t see any midfield links appearing which makes me think we’ll see another season of hot and cold football. I’m sure we will sign a midfielder but if we were targeting a wc MF who would cost > £100m which we should be, then we would have heard about it by now. We’ll end up getting someone like Zubimendi and left wondering “what if”…

The key for me is Timber.

If he can get back healthy, the we probably don't need to spend money on a defender, at least not top money for a starter.

Then sell the unused bench for 60-80m, we probably could have money for a top midfielder and a top forward.

 

[2Smokeyy]

Maddison is a better technical player than Havertz, but he can't cover as much space, press and win challenges aswell, or find space to score a goal aswell. Plus he can't stay fit. There is pluses and minuses to most players.

Lest we forget later generation Wenger had the best technical players but they didn't have the physical fortitude to come through for us

Nothing wrong with that but when you have other profiles in our squad that can provide similar to the above then was this signing even necessary?

Also that’s why I said blend if you have a look back at my post. We have one creative outlet in Ødegaard and not many or arguably any 1 vs 1 players with a burst of pace within the team. Saka can do that but Martinelli is very predictable.

Lest we forget AW’s sides were coming up against some of the best sides we’ve ever witness. Best ever club side I’ve seen in Barcelona, peak Bayern and great Utd/Chelsea teams. We’d get spanked differently if we came up against those sides imo physical fortitude or not.

 

[Xln]

The key for me is Timber.

If he can get back healthy, the we probably don't need to spend money on a defender, at least not top money for a starter.

Then sell the unused bench for 60-80m, we probably could have money for a top midfielder and a top forward.

Timber won't be the same, his general level will drop after this injury.

 

[Xln]

I can't lie, something has changed within this fan base. I couldn't believe my eyes when fans praised Kai's performance against Newcastle away because he showed some fight. In a game where Kai was our primary creator, he played like a ruffian. He was running about kicking people and almost got himself sent off. We grew up with Bergkamp, Cesc and Özil, and got the lanky Jay Spearing at no. 10. Arsenal fans are known for being arrogant when it comes to technical players. But when it came to Kai, our standards dropped.

That was something different. Prior to Newcastle Kai would run around and get cvcked by every player, seeing him actually fight back caught people by surprise. Some people gave him credit for that, incl. me but NEVER will I say he's of high quality.

He's been good for us in the prem though, as a 9. Must say I can't stand him in midfield, my blood boils seeing this passenger get scared when he receives the ball there.

 

[pireshenry]

N

I can't lie, something has changed within this fan base. I couldn't believe my eyes when fans praised Kai's performance against Newcastle away because he showed some fight. In a game where Kai was our primary creator, he played like a ruffian. He was running about kicking people and almost got himself sent off. We grew up with Bergkamp, Cesc and Özil, and got the lanky Jay Spearing at no. 10. Arsenal fans are known for being arrogant when it comes to technical players. But when it came to Kai, our standards dropped.

Actually, our standards are up. We are finally competing for titles.

For those of us who’ve been following the club for many years this is a great period and I’m proud of the club. Kai has been very strong in the league and his fight is what has helped us challenge.

We suffered a long period of mediocrity.

 

[ArsenesCoatMaker]

Nothing wrong with that but when you have other profiles in our squad that can provide similar to the above then was this signing even necessary?

Also that’s why I said blend if you have a look back at my post. We have one creative outlet in Ødegaard and not many or arguably any 1 vs 1 players with a burst of pace within the team. Saka can do that but Martinelli is very predictable.

Lest we forget AW’s sides were coming up against some of the best sides we’ve ever witness. Best ever club side I’ve seen in Barcelona, peak Bayern and great Utd/Chelsea teams. We’d get spanked differently if we came up against those sides imo physical fortitude or not.

I don't think anyone covers as much ground as Havertz, that's 1 thing that's surprised me. With Jesus's ongoing injuries we needed another striker and Havertz ticks that box. So yes I think if we didn't sign him we'd have less points with Nketieh filling in. Some may disagree but Havertz has picked up impressive goals and assists numbers in 2024

I do think we need another creative midfielder or for ESR or Vieira to step up. But was there any great creative midfielders we could of got last summer? Looking at who moved there was just Maddison, Szoboszlai, Kudus that I recall

Also I think it's very harsh for everyone getting on the strikers back on a defeat when we created very little as a team.

 

[2Smokeyy]

I don't think anyone covers as much ground as Havertz, that's 1 thing that's surprised me. With Jesus's ongoing injuries we needed another striker and Havertz ticks that box. So yes I think if we didn't sign him we'd have less points with Nketieh filling in. Some may disagree but Havertz has picked up impressive goals and assists numbers in 2024

I do think we need another creative midfielder or for ESR or Vieira to step up. But was there any great creative midfielders we could of got last summer? Looking at who moved there was just Maddison, Szoboszlai, Kudus that I recall

Also I think it's very harsh for everyone getting on the strikers back on a defeat when we created very little as a team.

None of us really know the specific ins and outs of the situation but I still feel like we should have done a lot more to try and convince Xhaka to stay imo just like we did with Gabriel as that would have solved one of our issues that we currently have in the 8 position, so we can put our efforts into investing in a natural CF.

Before anyone says I’m being reactionary off the back of his form with Leverkusen this season, it’s hardly that. I knew his worth in terms of reliability and also how difficult of a task it would be replacing what he provides us before he upped his productivity levels. Players like him, Trossard and Jorginho (who I wasn’t keen on initially) actually contribute to our side whereas there are others who provide us with nothing at all or are injured when it really matters.

I won’t act like Havertz hasn’t helped us at times this season as I’ll be fair but there were a lot of risks associated in replacing a player who just had one of his best seasons at the club with a player who arguably hasn’t played in that role and to make matters worse spend £67m in doing so. I also haven’t been a big fan of treating our 3rd ever club record signing as a special child in school as it doesn’t sit right with me, the only special we should be expecting from a £67m player and 250-275k wages is on the pitch.

The point you made about who was available last summer in terms of creativity, well it’s hard to say how those names you listed would have worked out here. We’ve seen Havertz specifically look out of sorts at Chelsea and come here then look like a competent player in a different system and manager, so who knows how they would have turned out? Our return in the PL for Havertz has been 9 PL goals which is one better than his 21/22 season at Chelsea. These same questions I’m asking would have been repeated had we signed a natural CF for that sort of fee and he scored 9 PL goals.

I’d say @Rasmi put it perfectly here:

Jack of all trades master of none. Terrible way to build a squad

We can’t moan about the lack of real quality players in our squad when our filter is pretty narrow on exactly the type of players we want. I think our priorities have been way off recently but again that’s just my opinion.

 

[Rasmi]

None of us really know the specific ins and outs of the situation but I still feel like we should have done a lot more to try and convince Xhaka to stay imo just like we did with Gabriel as that would have solved one of our issues that we currently have in the 8 position, so we can put our efforts into investing in a natural CF.

Before anyone says I’m being reactionary off the back of his form with Leverkusen this season, it’s hardly that. I knew his worth in terms of reliability and also how difficult of a task it would be replacing what he provides us before he upped his productivity levels. Players like him, Trossard and Jorginho (who I wasn’t keen on initially) actually contribute to our side whereas there are others who provide us with nothing at all or are injured when it really matters.

I won’t act like Havertz hasn’t helped us at times this season as I’ll be fair but there were a lot of risks associated in replacing a player who just had one of his best seasons at the club with a player who arguably hasn’t played in that role and to make matters worse spend £67m in doing so. I also haven’t been a big fan of treating our 3rd ever club record signing as a special child in school as it doesn’t sit right with me, the only special we should be expecting from a £67m player and 250-275k wages is on the pitch.

The point you made about who was available last summer in terms of creativity, well it’s hard to say how those names you listed would have worked out here. We’ve seen Havertz specifically look out of sorts at Chelsea and come here then look like a competent player in a different system and manager, so who knows how they would have turned out? Our return in the PL for Havertz has been 9 PL goals which is one better than his 21/22 season at Chelsea. These same questions I’m asking would have been repeated had we signed a natural CF for that sort of fee and he scored 9 PL goals.

I’d say @Rasmi put it perfectly here:



We can’t moan about the lack of real quality players in our squad when our filter is pretty narrow on exactly the type of players we want. I think our priorities have been way off recently but again that’s just my opinion.

I honestly think this summer we are on the verge of how our future will look like next few years. This summers window will have big impact on how the next few years go. Bad decisions at this time will take years to recover from

Despite what people believe we been very lucky with injuries this season on key players. Saka, Ødegaard, Saliba and Gabriel are 4 key players who been fit all season and the scary thing is if one of them had 2-3 month long injury. We can’t point for sure this guy will spot in his place. The squad is so unbalanced and has so much waste. Nothing was working for us vs Bayern and while staring at knockout we still managed 3 subs. Nelson, Vieira and ESR stayed on the bench. Despite not really creating anything he felt they could add nothing. Talk about waste

 

[Macho]

Hardly put a threat on De Ligt and Dier... what an awful signing.

He's ****, but the amount of cope to justify this questionable signing was disgusting. They will be back after he garnishes another 3-4nil hiding against a deadbeat team with a scrappy tap in, but he's not good.

 

[lomekian]

I can't lie, something has changed within this fan base. I couldn't believe my eyes when fans praised Kai's performance against Newcastle away because he showed some fight. In a game where Kai was our primary creator, he played like a ruffian. He was running about kicking people and almost got himself sent off. We grew up with Bergkamp, Cesc and Özil, and got the lanky Jay Spearing at no. 10. Arsenal fans are known for being arrogant when it comes to technical players. But when it came to Kai, our standards dropped.

Context is king. Kai had been both poor and timid up to that point, so showing some life was a significant positive step.

No-one has ever tried to suggest he could be Bergkamp, Cesc or Özil level.

There is nothing wrong celebrating the fact an expensive signing has gone from useless to useful.

 

[TheEliteMaster100_]

He's ****, but the amount of cope to justify this questionable signing was disgusting. They will be back after he garnishes another 3-4nil hiding against a deadbeat team with a scrappy tap in, but he's not good.

His only UCL goal was against Lens in a 6-0 drubbing at the Emirates too... disastrous signing, the type that the Arsenal Board should use to berate Arteta if they weren't cowards.

 

[lomekian]

We have it prioritise well. For me its clear, we need to get a proper midfielder in above everything. When our engine room isn’t pumping everything else falls apart, when it is on fire it masks over deficiencies elsewhere.

A defender is a nice to have, not a must have. Likewise with a striker. I would however argue that a pacy winger should be up there as well.

Unfortunately though I think the regime thinks differently and I don’t see any midfield links appearing which makes me think we’ll see another season of hot and cold football. I’m sure we will sign a midfielder but if we were targeting a wc MF who would cost > £100m which we should be, then we would have heard about it by now. We’ll end up getting someone like Zubimendi and left wondering “what if”…

not necesarily. Who knew we were getting Trossard, Jorginho, Havertz, Raya or Timber more than a week or so before they happened?

The less the press knows about our business the better. I don't give a **** what rumour crumbs we are thrown as long as we do our business