Let's take easy, this is european champions league, teams came here not by favor but merit. Let's give those Thun guys more credits. There wasn't a team that had a confortable win in this opening day except LYON( I loved it). Even Barcelona and Milan were very quite lucky if you watch their entire games. We played well and RVP, Cesc, Ljundberg should have all scored which means we created enough chances. I do agree with a all of those who are saying we have to take shots outside the box. I remember us scoring a lot of goals outside the box on our unbeaten season with Henry, Pires, Bergkamp having a good amount of them but lately we only want to walk the ball inside the net. Something worring me aswell is our free kicks. You were always sure Henry would score them but last year he hardly scored free kicks(2 or 3 the entire season). I hope the crackers will come back again, Henry putting every single well placed free kick inside and we're back to business as usual or even better.
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Anonymous
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Will you use a feckin paragraph PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The point about other teams not having an easy win, is a bit silly.
Because it's a different kettle of fish to compare Werder Bremen with FC Thun.
A) FC Thun played and spoke afterwords, like they had figured us out.. and in the majority they had.
B) FC Thun is a small club, a very small unit.. and if the individual qualities that people everywhere bang on about can't break it down.. then hope is fading.
C) I'm not into give FC Thun credit. They can battle all they want, but they should not have been in a position to win or draw at Highbury. Simple as that.
D) I'll concede that FC Thun played well, if you concede that Arsenal don't deserve to be a top seed. Because being a top seeded team is supposed to mean something.
Werder Bremen was beat 2-0 by Barcelona. 2-0 is a solid results.
Udinese 3-0 Panathinaikos - again.. a solid result.
Rapid Vienna 0-1 Bayern Munich - Munich can easily have the benefit of the doubt, after mashing up Arsenal in the first leg last season.. and beating chelsea in the second leg. They can score.. they have decent opposition also.
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The point about other teams not having an easy win, is a bit silly.
Because it's a different kettle of fish to compare Werder Bremen with FC Thun.
A) FC Thun played and spoke afterwords, like they had figured us out.. and in the majority they had.
B) FC Thun is a small club, a very small unit.. and if the individual qualities that people everywhere bang on about can't break it down.. then hope is fading.
C) I'm not into give FC Thun credit. They can battle all they want, but they should not have been in a position to win or draw at Highbury. Simple as that.
D) I'll concede that FC Thun played well, if you concede that Arsenal don't deserve to be a top seed. Because being a top seeded team is supposed to mean something.
Werder Bremen was beat 2-0 by Barcelona. 2-0 is a solid results.
Udinese 3-0 Panathinaikos - again.. a solid result.
Rapid Vienna 0-1 Bayern Munich - Munich can easily have the benefit of the doubt, after mashing up Arsenal in the first leg last season.. and beating chelsea in the second leg. They can score.. they have decent opposition also.
USArsenal
H.Y.I.C.
Kha0z said:
mate, just because someone doesnt like to take up half a page per post doesnt mean he should be criticized...
kanooo
Well-Known Member
Kha0z said:
Thun ... to me are amatures. They should have been slaughtered. The result was close but actually we made it close. Our guys should have taken their chances more (how many times are we saying this nowadays).
Maybe the supporters should add one more chant during matches - "Same old Arsenal. Always wasting chances."
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
Kha0z, do you know the difference between negativity and realism?
Nobody's kidding themselves that Wednesday was a great night, but with ten men, we managed to do the business. It doesn't matter when, it doesn't matter how, the job got done and that's all that counts. Expecting ten men to win 3-0 in the Champions League says to me that you've been a little spoilt by the Wenger years.
Arsenal will improve, or not, if you believe Wenger's methods to be outdated and exposed. But if you really believe that to be the case, then you shouldn't have such high expectations of the team should you? As far as the CL goes I know I don't...
By the way, your post wasn't exactly a perfect "paragraph" was it?
Nobody's kidding themselves that Wednesday was a great night, but with ten men, we managed to do the business. It doesn't matter when, it doesn't matter how, the job got done and that's all that counts. Expecting ten men to win 3-0 in the Champions League says to me that you've been a little spoilt by the Wenger years.
Arsenal will improve, or not, if you believe Wenger's methods to be outdated and exposed. But if you really believe that to be the case, then you shouldn't have such high expectations of the team should you? As far as the CL goes I know I don't...
By the way, your post wasn't exactly a perfect "paragraph" was it?
Gurgen
Established Member
Kha0z, we got lucky?
Yeah we got lucky we got a totally underserved red card, we were lucky the ref missed two obvious penalty claims, we were lucky Gilberto was elbowed in his face and their player wasn't even booked. And finally we were extremely lucky an attempt at a cross from one of the crappiest players in the world sailed into the back of the net.
Dumbass.
Yeah we got lucky we got a totally underserved red card, we were lucky the ref missed two obvious penalty claims, we were lucky Gilberto was elbowed in his face and their player wasn't even booked. And finally we were extremely lucky an attempt at a cross from one of the crappiest players in the world sailed into the back of the net.
Dumbass.
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USArsenal said:
I meant, could he space out his wording.. rather then bunching his point in one jumble.
Arsenal tend to make a meal of european games.. making qualifying harder then it should be.. this wasn't really an exception.
There is no such thing as perfection so anyone asking, expecting or mentioning it.. isn't exactly smart. I simply asked for a bit of focus, not a harsh request..
Ten men.. we still done the business? Don't be naive. We got lucky thanks to an individual bit of determination and skill, that created it's own luck.
Negativity is criticism without purpose. Realism is statement of the obvious facts. I'm on the side of realism. Thanks.
I have not been spoilt over the wenger years in europe since there haven't really been much to savour over the european campaigns.
FC Thun was not champions league. FC Thun was an semi professional club of part timers who shocked past sides to earn a place in the group stage. It was european competition, but not an european match up.
To say that, somehow the result is all the more justified just because 10 men played against 11, incidentally makes fun of the ability of the 10 men, considering the profile and banter of these 10 arsenal players.
If I have high expectations, then it is clear that you have no expectations whatsoever, because 3-0 against a side that has no CL experience, no european experience.. and is a collective unit, without the skill.. against a side, supposedly brimming with talent.. marked as a top seed, who has won their domestic title in a harsher league (in the past of course)..
It's just laughable.. and it all sounds like excuses. And that 3-0.. I would expect from any top seed, or any second seed in europe.
Eitherway. Scraping through against such opposition is not a good sign.
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
Kha0z said:
Skill, luck, whatever. The fact of the matter is that we won. Do you think Chelsea fans care whether Didier Drogba got his winner against us with his shin as opposed to his head or foot? No, what they care about is the win.
As you rightly point out, there hasn't been much to savour for us in Europe, so why so surprised that we struggled to beat Thun. And we say struggled, let's be clear that having a man sent off would put any team in the world at a disadvantage, no matter who they were playing. Then factor in the fact that with ten we still ran the game and should have had a penalty whilst Thun mustered about two other chances in the match.
You're right, I don't have any expectations of Arsenal in Europe, but I had pointed that out already. Why have expectations? What have Arsenal shown in Europe that brings you to this painful state? I know how good our players are but they seem almost pathologically averse to the CL. Getting upset isn't going change that, better to expect nothing. And then you may get a big surprise one day.
But I guarantee you, Manchester City aside, any team in the world would struggle to score three goals with ten men, regardless of the opposition.
I do agree, though, with you final sentence. But then, as I have little expectation of the Gunners in Europe, it's not really an issue for me.
qs
Established Member
Kha0z said:
I seen Inter 1-0 Art Media, pretty similar situation. Chelsea beat a poor side 1-0, Milan only won in the last few minutes. Small teams that get to the group stages get there because they are well organised and dont concede alot of goals. Im sure if RVP hadnt been sent off we'd have had a comfortable 2 or 3 - 0 victory but he was sent off and they were well organised, dirty and lucky. The ref was a ****ing sham. If they hadnt scored a jammy goal and if the ref wasnt a rookie afriad of giving obvious penalties we'd have walked it.
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
qs said:
Thank you! Somebody buy that man a drink..
awooga83
Established Member
Exactly gs couldn't agree more.
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Gurgen said:
Oh the penalty screwed us.. Waaah! Waah! The penalty... The penalty!
Please. So obvious.. the ref didnt even bother noting them.. Penalties.. Please. I agree.. Gilberto's elbow deserved a red. But It wasn't given.. tough.
What's that say about Almunia? He fell down before the ball went down into the net.. So even the crappiest players can score against Arsenal?
You make such intresting comments. Now please - Be quiet.
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Casbah..
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So what's this? Comparing FC Thun to Chelski? Lol. Well Don't bother.
Drogba made his own luck, that day.. just as Bergkamp made his against Thun. And Chelsea Vs Arsenal is 1st vs 3rd. FC Thun Vs Arsenal isn't even in the same class distinction. If it was Boxing.. it would be an illegal fight.. the class seperation supposedly is that large. Shame it never panned out that way in reality. The win is a win. But the manner of the win will always matter, because it shows.. That Arsenal still can't reach 3rd gear in europe.
Possesion without penetration is nothing. And besides that you don't see other team's game plan - They are letting Arsenal have the ball, but restricting the space. Hence high possession, without chances to score.
Agreed. I'm not upset.. simply analyzing the result in it's deserved context.
Surprise.. What's that? Doesn't really belong in the current Arsenal Dictionary.
[Gs]
Who cares about Intermilan.. with the exception of Adriano.. I'm not exactly intrested, eitherway.. they are second seeds in the Champions league, and are 3rd in their domestic pecking order behind Juve and AC Milan.
Chelsea beat teams 1-0 because they play for the result, not the peformance. And everyone is poor compared to chelski (Financially)
Anderlecht got beat 1-0 but their pedigree outweigh's FC Thun.. Anderlect has experience of the CL, and has won titles in it's respective league. FC Thun, no disrespect.. is a nothing team.
Milan also like to play for the result in Europe, but they can play offensively when it matters.. and given their european history .. it seems pointless to compare them with Arsenal.. besides they won 3-1.
Gurgen
Established Member
Just when I thought stupidity couldn't reach a higher level.
Funny how every good thing we do is luck and every unfortunate thing that happens to us is 'tough'.
You should stop watching football, it's obsiously bad for your nerves.
Funny how every good thing we do is luck and every unfortunate thing that happens to us is 'tough'.
You should stop watching football, it's obsiously bad for your nerves.
Mbaki Mutahaba
Established Member
KhaOz,
Stick to one thing. Just few posts earlier you were doggin arsenal for scrapping a win in a game that we should win even 3-0 with 10 man. How did you expect us to do that without commiting numbers upfront?
Now you are saying Defense wins!! So what do you want cos for sure you can NOT have both. It just doesn't work like that. Teams with very good offensive usually don't have the best defense and that is just logical. Look around you at teams that play offensively, real, us, barca. You are the type that will compliment Chelsea for scrapping a 1-0 but criticize arsenal when they do the same. Chelsea plays for the result. Is that good or bad if I may ask? Obviously you envy them so am assuming that is good. Don't you think anytime when we scrap a win..we simply played for the result and achieved it? Then now does that become negative with us?
I keep asking this questions what do you fans really want? You can not hide forever and just ****** when its convenient. At the end of it you will have to pick a tactic and live with it. If you expect us to usually win CL games by 2-0..then you are accepting that our defense will be vulnerable at times.
Stick to one thing. Just few posts earlier you were doggin arsenal for scrapping a win in a game that we should win even 3-0 with 10 man. How did you expect us to do that without commiting numbers upfront?
Now you are saying Defense wins!! So what do you want cos for sure you can NOT have both. It just doesn't work like that. Teams with very good offensive usually don't have the best defense and that is just logical. Look around you at teams that play offensively, real, us, barca. You are the type that will compliment Chelsea for scrapping a 1-0 but criticize arsenal when they do the same. Chelsea plays for the result. Is that good or bad if I may ask? Obviously you envy them so am assuming that is good. Don't you think anytime when we scrap a win..we simply played for the result and achieved it? Then now does that become negative with us?
I keep asking this questions what do you fans really want? You can not hide forever and just ****** when its convenient. At the end of it you will have to pick a tactic and live with it. If you expect us to usually win CL games by 2-0..then you are accepting that our defense will be vulnerable at times.
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Anonymous
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K H A 0 Z - it's a zero.. please put the zero in. I like the zero. It's all about the Zero.
Just a few posts earlier? Just a few points earlier we was discussing a different aspect.
I said defensive wins, in the overall context of the champions league.
Arsenal aren't the only team that can counteract. And many teams practise set-pieces to knock out teams that generally lapse in concentration during set pieces like Arsenal.
Teams with good offense, doesn't mean that the defence has to be piss-poor and generally substandard. I don't compliment Chelsea, I simply say what they do, They have no heratage.. they play to win.. they come from a cup side.. they play to win.. 1-0 doesn't matter to them. Arsène Wenger isn't that style of manager.. and Arsenal aren't that type of club..
Chelsea playing for the result doesn't matter to me. IMO I think it's bad because it's negative, a waste of people's money and a tactic that overall destroys the essence of full flowing football. But other people won't think it's bad because the defense is so solid, that other side's can't breakthrough meaning that eventually if anyone's going to score.. it's going to be Chelsea.
I don't envy Chelsea, Chelsea are artificial, nothing there would be possible without the money which invalidates everything they do. Success should generate money, not the otherway around. But I'm no idiot.
They are here, and you have to deal with it, you have to accept it. You have to talk about. You have to discover the positives and negatives.. and think of a way to overcome Chelsea. No man is an island, no team is invincible.
The difference between a team scrapping for a win, and Arsenal scrapping for a win, is that teams exhibit fighting spirit throughout that pitch.. Arsenal switch to trying anything when Plan A doesn't bare any fruit.. collectively they ran out of ideas.. and Bergkamp came on the pitch and to his credit kept fighting and fighting. But at the end of the day, it was a deserved result.. but one that might not have happened.. which is underachievement for a club like Arsenal.
You haven't asked me what I want. Thank you.
I do not hide, I say what I see, and what I consider to be obvious.
I can pick a tactic all day long, but I'm not that manager.. so it doesn't matter one jot. Wenger calls the plays.. the team follows em, I analyze em. I criticize the team, when they deserve it. I praise them when they deserve it. I am a fan. If I wasn't I'd have written them off long ago and done something else. Rather then wasting time here.
2-0 ? That's optimistic.. since I don't expect Arsenal to keep clean sheets.
I expect them to win, and probably win well, since it seems.. that's the only way they know how to play. Domestically at least..
Mbaki Mutahaba
Established Member
I am trying to understand you. What exactly do you think is our problem again?
1) Sub-Standard ****ty defense
2) Offense
3) Lack of guts
4) Bad Tactics by Wenger
Is winning everything to you?Because in that case then style should not matter. Being able to just play for a result requires a major sacrifice in your style. Its your choice. What Wenger has tried to do and this is very difficult is to achieve both!! Looking at our budget, club size...he has done a very remarkable job.
Are you willing to sacrifice our style so that we can adopt the mentality of winning at all costs all the time. Its not a switch my friend. Its something you build in a team. Chelsea can only try to come with guns blazing against a very weak opposition. But their style (not losing first) which is similar to italian teams does prove effective. Pick the statergy and deal with it. I honestly would rather we maintain our style. We can always once in a while try to do a chelsea game..but realistically we can not be as effective due to the fact thats its not really embedded in us..and also the quality/experience of our players is not chelsea's level.
1) Sub-Standard ****ty defense
2) Offense
3) Lack of guts
4) Bad Tactics by Wenger
Is winning everything to you?Because in that case then style should not matter. Being able to just play for a result requires a major sacrifice in your style. Its your choice. What Wenger has tried to do and this is very difficult is to achieve both!! Looking at our budget, club size...he has done a very remarkable job.
Are you willing to sacrifice our style so that we can adopt the mentality of winning at all costs all the time. Its not a switch my friend. Its something you build in a team. Chelsea can only try to come with guns blazing against a very weak opposition. But their style (not losing first) which is similar to italian teams does prove effective. Pick the statergy and deal with it. I honestly would rather we maintain our style. We can always once in a while try to do a chelsea game..but realistically we can not be as effective due to the fact thats its not really embedded in us..and also the quality/experience of our players is not chelsea's level.
qs
Established Member
Kha0z, Inter are the top seeds in their group. Who did you think itwas Rangers or Porto? :roll:
Juventus beat Brugge, another so called **** team, 2-1. I suppose they play for narrow victories too. Fine for Chelsea to win by a narrow victory and for AC to scrape a result in the last 5 minutes but f Arsenal do it with 10 men then they arent good enough, yeah makes a lot of sense alright.
Only 2 teams had victories with more than 2 goals more than the opposition. We were down to 10 men, the ref lets us down on a couple of occassions as well as the sending off and gave one of the worst performances Ive seen from a uefa ref since, well Colini reffing the Everton game, but the point is we did have 2 cast iron penalties not given. You can say what you want but Sol was basically bear hugged and Reyes was bodychecked with a side of headbutt.
"Average defences are saved by great goalkeepers" - then you mention Madrid? Yeah Casillias really saved them this week. Our defence wasnt weak anyway we only conceded a very jammy goal, I dont care who you are you cant legislate for that.
At the end of the day we won, no one esle in our group did. That puts us top and means we are in control. I dont really care as long as we keep winning.
Juventus beat Brugge, another so called **** team, 2-1. I suppose they play for narrow victories too. Fine for Chelsea to win by a narrow victory and for AC to scrape a result in the last 5 minutes but f Arsenal do it with 10 men then they arent good enough, yeah makes a lot of sense alright.
Only 2 teams had victories with more than 2 goals more than the opposition. We were down to 10 men, the ref lets us down on a couple of occassions as well as the sending off and gave one of the worst performances Ive seen from a uefa ref since, well Colini reffing the Everton game, but the point is we did have 2 cast iron penalties not given. You can say what you want but Sol was basically bear hugged and Reyes was bodychecked with a side of headbutt.
"Average defences are saved by great goalkeepers" - then you mention Madrid? Yeah Casillias really saved them this week. Our defence wasnt weak anyway we only conceded a very jammy goal, I dont care who you are you cant legislate for that.
At the end of the day we won, no one esle in our group did. That puts us top and means we are in control. I dont really care as long as we keep winning.
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-----Mbaki Mutahaba said:
1)Yes I believe their defence is sub-standard. Left back is the only solid position imo. Both defender's Toure and Senderos lack muscle despite having talent. Campbell can't be expected to last. And Lehmann despite winning praise from me for his FA CUP winning performance.. can still produce high profile errors.. and is just the wrong side of beatable for my likeing.
2)Yes I believe that their offense is to intricate, lacks tempo and velocity.
And after henry.. it can fizzle out and be down right inneffective, and not enough goals come from midfield. Some say Pires - I say he was simply the last touch of great Arsenal movement play. And sometimes he used his knowledge to place himself in good positions.. good for him, but he is one out of four..
3)Yes I believe that as a team, Arsenal lack direction, precision and any real cut and drive through the team, A body without a spine.
4) Despite being one of the ones who doesn't like the fact that Wenger doesn't usually make substitutions early enough.. I don't really think Wenger has bad tactics.. sometimes it doesn't work for him.. and he only really has one tactic in the first place.. but it's not bad, it could just use some refinement and evolution.
Is winning everything to me? It should be. In an ideal world it would be.
It's not everything to me, but I'm not a loser. I don't like the taste, and I don't see why anyone else would like the taste either.
Being able to play for a result doesn't mean you sacrifice your identity, playing for a result means you be clinical, it means you do what's nessecary and do the simple things flawlessly. Like passing, like keeping possession in the final third, like defending solidly as a unit, like creating and taking chances.
I never attacked Wenger's history.. so don't bring it up. I don't live in the past. I'm talking about here and now. Not 2003. Not 2000, Not 1945.
ops: I'm dealing with 2005 here. And yes, he has done a great job. Chelsea bought two players this season, after winning. Arsenal let two leave, and brought in one after coming second.. does that sound logical? Forget the arguement. I can't be bothered to be honest. So be it. Transitional season.
Good for you gs.. now run along now and declare victory.. communism is over! wewt!!!
Juventus were in control of the game for the second half, they lost vieira late on.. and the game was won before then.. the goal was a consellation.
Juventus, never looked like losing or drawing. Try watching the game.
Vieira and Nedved had them bossed. Brugge effectively had no center of midfield possession.
AC Milan didnt really scrape through.. actually towards the end.. it was just a matter of when and who.. Kaka and Shencenko.. I don't feel AC Milan will be really lacking goals when it matters as long as those two are on form... and Shencenko and Vieri were a bit wasteful. But it wasn't scrappy. AC Milan actually done their share of fighting in that game, to come off a loss.. and seem impressive. I've said it in that thread.. if there was no Arsenal.. I would support AC Milan.
Don't be *. No Goalkeeper in the world can keep them all out.
Peter cech is beatable.. he simply an excellent and focused defense in front of him. And the 3-0 is simply an indication that the TEAM played poorly.
Jammy goal you say? I don't care if it was a chocolate fudge goal.. Manual Almunia backtracked.. and then fell before the ball finished it's descent into the bottom corner of his own net.. That is pathetic.
That's true, but that's a byproduct of the group anyway.. Ajax is a team rebuilding.. and good for them. Since their youth system is still great.
Lol. What was that about Chelsea Mentality..
Mbaki Mutahaba
Established Member
Kha0z said:
Kha0z,
Have you ever ever ever ever played this game at a competitive level? You think creating and taking chances is something that is simple and can be done flawlessly? This is NOT fantasy football boy.
You can't expect the same team to always create numerous chances and at the same time always defend in a solid unit. It does not work like that. I think either you have an unrealistic expectation of Arsenal or you don't understand this game very well.
From that long laundry list, I really do wonder what are the positives of Arsenal? So what has made Arsenal of 2005(just 5 games from a potential 50+) get a defense that is inept or an offense that is completely ineffective?
On a serious note what do you think we do effectively as a team? With your list of our weaknesses i don't see how UEFA will make us top seed.
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Mbaki Mutahaba said:
Ooh.. she called me boy. Don't play that role with me.. it doesn't suit someone of your character. If you don't like what I say.. feel free to ignore it.
You talk about taking chances being of the fantasy.. well you must be right, because right now, Arsenal aren't actually creating chances, nor having many shots on target. That doesn't restrict playing well to fantasy football however.
I don't expect them to do a damm thing.. I hope they play well, I hope they work as a team, and I hope they win. Right now, they aren't really doing any. I don't consider this unrealistic.
Serious note.. as in there isn't a serious note in your post? Bah. Tell me earlier next time, saves me replying at all.
What do I think Arsenal doing effectively? Passing the ball in their own half without pressure. And if I was uefa, tis true.. They probably wouldnt be top seed. Sure they have had their own domestic niceness, but they've never conqured europe. And don't look like doing it any time soon.
