Winning Mentality

[Iloveyouarsenewenger]

Wenger is a winner. Unfortunately, it is not an easy task to simply "instill winning mentality within players". Our players are very young and have a lot of insecurities and fears due to the years of disappointment. Some of them, like Wilshere, Szczesny, Vermaelen and Cesc are born fighters, but, many others wilt under pressure and look up to others to perform.

There is no simple way to "instill the winning mentality". It will come gradually as players go up, players with better mentality are added to the team and the weak links are weeded out.

 

[DanDare]

I have to say I disagree and as much as it pains me to reference United I think one really has to. It's cliched but United do play with this "never say die" attitude. Not just Giggs, Scholes, Vidic etc but Rafael, Rooney, Hernandez etc.

Either it is Ferguson only buying players with that mentality (I doubt that, it's pretty hard to predict surely) or he has created an atmosphere of belief and motivation within the United camp that leaks into the young players quickly.

Either way it is something it seems Wenger has not been capable of with this set of players.

We used to score loads of goals in the last 10 minutes of games. I don't think we do so much any more.

 

[ibby]

I have to say I disagree and as much as it pains me to reference United I think one really has to. It's cliched but United do play with this "never say die" attitude. Not just Giggs, Scholes, Vidic etc but Rafael, Rooney, Hernandez etc.

Either it is Ferguson only buying players with that mentality (I doubt that, it's pretty hard to predict surely) or he has created an atmosphere of belief and motivation within the United camp that leaks into the young players quickly.

Either way it is something it seems Wenger has not been capable of with this set of players.

We used to score loads of goals in the last 10 minutes of games. I don't think we do so much any more.

We did so for fun up until this season - we still win nothing.

I have come to the ground-breaking conclusion that Manchester United are just a better team.

 

[dpt49]

I have come to the ground-breaking conclusion that Manchester United are just a better team.

Because they have spent hundreds of millions on buying the best players

 

[fabo]

There is very little if anything between both squads currently, quality-wise at least. I'd say United's squad is more balanced and has more players who actually fit their system/style of play.

Rio is finished and has contributed very little all season, they have no quality RB, Evra hasn't been great in a while, their CM has been a weakness for years, Rooney was a joke for half the season, Park and Valencia have missed significant spells.

Lack of spending wasn't the root of our problems this season anyway.

 

[Mastadon]

I have come to the ground-breaking conclusion that Manchester United are just a better team.

Because they have spent hundreds of millions on buying the best players

Thats actually pretty ironic because it is Manchester United who are top of the table and have been the best team in the country despite NOT spending large amounts of money for the last 2 seasons. They are the ones who are showing that a balanced transfer policy > blindly spending money, not us. You need to revisit your understanding of what makes Manchester United a better team because it clearly isnt just about money.

 

[Accomplished]

Thats actually pretty ironic because it is Manchester United who are top of the table and have been the best team in the country despite NOT spending large amounts of money for the last 2 seasons. They are the ones who are showing that a balanced transfer policy > blindly spending money, not us. You need to revisit your understanding of what makes Manchester United a better team because it clearly isnt just about money.

That's like saying Chelsea have a balanced transfer policy because (before January at least) they hadn't spent huge amounts of money for a couple of years. Spending hundreds of millions and then dropping off to spend an "average" amount of money doesn't make it a balanced transfer policy.

Have no fear though, if we run united close this season, or win it, Sir Alex will try to spend another huge wad of cash in the summer.

 

[Big Poppa]

Interesting debate. I think part of the problem is that we (and I include the fans in this) are too quick to write off players who are of a certain age and suffer a loss of form or injuries. We are also too quick to make emerging youngsters permanent fixtures in the starting XI.

To use an example - take Reyes and Pires. We signed Reyes in 2004 when Pires was 29/30. Reyes came in and made a big instant impact. Once he had done so after two or three games, Pires was 2nd choice for the left side. Vieira and Fabregas is another.

We had games such as the 2nd leg against Chelsea at Highbury in the CL where, although Reyes scored, you could see that once Chelsea equalised we were struggling to raise our game and see out the 1-1 or reply with another goal. As it were, Chelsea, through Wayne Bridge of all people, made it 1-2 and left us needing 3 in 5 minutes. This is a side that had beaten us once at Highbury in about 15 years, and that were facing arguably our greatest team during that time.

I think what Fergie does well is that he keeps senior players involved cosntantly and knowing they have a part to play throughout the season. We wait for our youngsters to burn out or for an unimportant cup game to ever do this. As a result, the senior players on the fringes of things see little point in hanging around, and Wenger being the honest person that he is, let's them know that they are unlikely to play many games.

When it comes to the business end of the season, you see the value of experience. Fortunately enough, a lot of our players are getting there but there is still a dearth of those who have seen it through. I think experiences teaches you to focus on playing your overall game and not each little pass that goes astray or each small decision that goes against you. Some of our players spend too long clinging to the disappointment of what has passed and forget that it can mean nothing over the course of the season.

 

[outlaw_member]

I agree. For example, I've written Lampard off, because he's 32 years old and has hit a slump after years of consistency. A Chelsea fan I know cites Giggs and believes that Lampard could recover and offer many qualities in his veteran years. Obviously, one could say that he's just trying to be optimistic, and not everyone can last as long as Giggs. But I think it was a good reflection on how we differed on our views in regards to old players. The moment we see a regression in an ageing player, we immediately start to entertain the idea of letting them go. Which is quite unbelievable given how much Bergkamp and the famous five offered to the team in their senior years.

The second part is also very important, and comes back to the rotation policy that I mentioned a few days ago. Ferguson seldom sticks with his best eleven, and is always chopping and changing his team. We on the other hand try to stick with the same team for as long as possible. A good example would be Gilberto who was ousted out by Flamini and never saw the light of day again, bar a few sporadic performances in the cup. It's no wonder that he wanted to leave, and his performances had declined so severely. Had he been rotated a bit more with Flamini throughout the season, we could have kept the Frenchman fresh and Gilberto match fit.

 

[Accomplished]

The second part is also very important, and comes back to the rotation policy that I mentioned a few days ago. Ferguson seldom sticks with his best eleven, and is always chopping and changing his team. We on the other hand try to stick with the same team for as long as possible. A good example would be Gilberto who was ousted out by Flamini and never saw the light of day again, bar a few sporadic performances in the cup. It's no wonder that he wanted to leave, and his performances had declined so severely. Had he been rotated a bit more with Flamini throughout the season, we could have kept the Frenchman fresh and Gilberto match fit.

Agree with this. The problem now is that our squad players don't have enough experience to make up for their lack of genuine quality, so rotation doesn't really work as it would if we had some experienced backups.

 

[outlaw_member]

I think it can, if it is done enough to keep the players competitive and match fit. Look at Chamakh for example, who had played the entire first half of the season, but has been frozen out ever since. Is it really surprising that his form and performances have dipped drastically, when he's barely featured since van Persie's return and has only been able to contest the odd cup game?

 

[dpt49]

Because they have spent hundreds of millions on buying the best players

Thats actually pretty ironic because it is Manchester United who are top of the table and have been the best team in the country despite NOT spending large amounts of money for the last 2 seasons. They are the ones who are showing that a balanced transfer policy > blindly spending money, not us. You need to revisit your understanding of what makes Manchester United a better team because it clearly isnt just about money.

If you go through their squad there aren't many home grown players.
All the players they have bought cost a fair amount of money. Squad players like Carrick. Anderson, Hargreaves, Valencia all cost more than 17m, which is more than Wenger has ever spent on one player.
Even when Ferguson buys young players they cost a fortune as well, Rooney 30m and Smalling 10m.
Then take into account 30m Ferdinand, 30m Berbatov, and all the other millions on the rest of the squad and you realise spending money is a good way of winning the league.

Don't forget as well, Ferguson has had the luxury of wasting vast quantities of cash on players, 30m on Veron for example.

He is successful, but I would be interested to see how he would have done in the EPL at Arsenal with our spending restrictions.

Not as good as Wenger probably

 

[DanDare]

Its Wenger who created the no room for oldies mentality at Arsenal. However, I think it would be silly for us to think had we kept many of our players they would have done a Giggs.

 

[dpt49]

Its Wenger who created the no room for oldies mentality at Arsenal. However, I think it would be silly for us to think had we kept many of our players they would have done a Giggs.

There aren't many players like Giggs, although Bergkamp was our equivalent.

I am still amazed that he bought Campbell and Lehman back, although they were under special circumstances.

I do believe that it is a myth though that Ferguson brings through quality youth players. Apart from Giggs, Beckham and Scholes he has not produced much in over 20 years. Also in all his time, at Man u, he has not produced a top quality striker, CB or GK, from the youth system, he relies totally on big spending

 

[Iloveyouarsenewenger]

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2011/04/15/2442334/arsenal-have-lacked-winning-mentality-since-i-left-patrick" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2 ... ft-patrick</a>

Manchester City midfielder Patrick Vieira has admitted that he still has affection for former club Arsenal, but added that the Gunners are struggling to win trophies because they don't have the right attitude to be successful.

Vieira spent nine seasons at the London side, but spoke of his disappointment that the team seem incapable of collecting major honours, telling L'Equipe: "I still have warm feelings for Arsenal, but it's starting to become frustrating. They play the best football in England, yet they fail to win anything significant.

"I really enjoy watching them, but they lack the physicality to impose themselves. Arsenal don't have the killer attitude that a team like Manchester United have.

"[Tony] Adams, [Martin] Keown, [Nigel] Winterburn and [Ray] Parlour weren't as good with the ball as the current players, but they put their head where others won't even put feet."

Here's what Vieira has to say about our mentality.

 

[fabo]

Yep, and now we value players like Koscielny who are nice on the ball but struggle to do the job a CB should do.

 

[SA Gunner]

I just mentioned those comments, and similar minded ones by Wenger, on the race thread.

Absolutely vital piece, required for us to cross the line. Nothing else will suffice imo.

 

[Anzac]

IMO our mentality issues start off the pitch with our reported minimum targets each season = maintain top4/CL status; challenge for the PL title; progress beyond CL Group Stage; Q/Fs in the domestic Cups.

There isn't enough pressure on the manager or team to better themselves, and we've been able to meet these targets consistantly whilst still changing shape & developing youngsters & selling our experience etc.

The danger is that once the pressure DOES come to bear that we struggle out of our comfort zone & lack the drive to either sieze the moment OR to put in the hard yards.

We have become far too comfortable & have lost any hunger or determination.

 

[avenellroad]

Interesting test for this team’s mentality coming up. Has this group developed the resilience to keep going? I am more interested in seeing how this team responds to this setback.

We can put our title aspirations to one side as I think City are at least 70% favourites currently. I do however want to see the right response and us pushing right until the very end regardless of what happens.

Also a test for the transactional relationship that the club has with the largely fair weather fanbase in the stadium. ‘North London Forever’ indeed until the fans still leaving en masse

 

[Batman]

Interesting test for this team’s mentality coming up. Has this team developed the resilience to keep going? I am more interested in seeing how this team responds to this setback

Also a test for the transactional relationship that the club has with the largely fair weather fanbase in the stadium. ‘North London Forever’ indeed until the fans still leaving en masse

Do the club let everyone in for free? No? Everything is transactional. The supporters pay to be entertained and to see the club win things. It's a give and take relationship. The club takes the money and they are supposed to give a credible effort out there. Those supporters in the stadium have been paying near the highest ticket price in the country for 2 decades with a few FA Cups to show for their troubles when they were sold on the idea that the stadium would have them rubbing shoulders with Madrid.

They stuck with them when they bottled the league last season and made that pathetic exit to Sporting. They've stuck with them this season when they had those horror results in December. Those supporters have given the club far more in the last 2 decades than they've gotten in return. Categorizing them as fair weather for leaving a few minutes into extra time in a match the team had carelessly thrown away is quite disrespectful.